LAS VEGAS: AN AUSTRALIAN’S TALE
The articles on the Las Vegas shooting continue to pour in, and I am grateful to all of you sharing them. This one comes from Mr. V.T., and if true, raises more questions:
Mr. Brian Hodge, a citizen of Australia, was apparently in the room next door to Paddock's, and had this to say:
An Australian man who was staying in the room next to the shooter in the Mandalay Bay has confirmed he witnessed multiple gunmen involved in the Las Vegas attack.
“There were multiple people dead and multiple shooters. I was just hiding waiting for police to come get us. I got outside safely and was hiding in bushes,” Brian Hodge told Australia’s Courier-Mail.
Mr. Hodge, who was staying in room 32134, next door to Stephen Paddock in room 32135, also provided important information when he revealed that a security guard was killed by police.
“My floor is a crime scene. They killed a security guard on my floor.”
Who was the “security guard” who was killed by police?(Emphasis in the original)
The article continues by referencing yet another witness, who saw suspicious activity concerning a security officer:
Wendy Miller from Cooroy, on the Sunshine Coast – another Australian caught up in the Las Vegas shooting – may have provided a missing piece of the puzzle. Also speaking to the Courier-Mail, Ms Miller said she was at a bar in the nearby Luxor Hotel with her husband when she saw what she described as a “man of interest” run by.
Ms Miller said the man sprinted through her hotel after coming off an escalator from the Mandalay Bay.
“The man that they [security] were chasing was wearing a security jacket like them,” she said.
Mr Hodge’s eyewitness report of multiple gunmen and a dead security guard, and with Ms Miller’s report of a security guard being chased by authorities, suggest that the mainstream media narrative of the “lone wolf” gunman is not the truth.
There you have it: two Australians are providing a version of events that is certainly not condign to the narrative being cobbled together by the corporate controlled Mighty Wurlitzer Media. In this case, however, the allegations are disturbing, for if true, it would indicate that at least one "security guard" was not a legitimate security guard. Accepting that for the sake of argument, this would imply the possibility of other plants within casino security that day.
Bear with me, because this is where my high octane speculation begins. First, a personal note. Many, but not all, regular readers here will know that many years ago I was a casino floor manager. In fact, at one point, I was the ranking floor manager on the overnight shift in the casino I worked for. I went through the usual hiring process: I had to fill out an application that seemed longer than the Old Testament, and wait for several weeks while it was vetted. Once accepted, I went through the usual training, and once working, I had to work with security, which in casinos, as everyone knows, is quite intense. The bottom line: all floor personnel and security personnel know each other. In a large concern like the Mandalay, this probably isn't the case, at least on a personal level, but nonetheless, even if one doesn't know or interact with particular staff members, one will at least recognize certain faces over time.
This brings me to a disturbing set of conclusions and implications: if there was a "fake" security officer who in turn implies the possibility of other fake security officers, then the implications are that they were planted some time in advance of the event. Even if they were planted only a few days prior to the event, they would have to have been given key codes, security cards, and to have been familiarized with that particular casino's operating procedures. This implies, once again, "people on the inside" able to procure any false documentation to allow such moles access to the secure areas of the casino and hotel. So if these Australians' allegations should be born out by other developed details, then the bottom line is that that casino, and quite possibly many others, could be similarly infiltrated. And that means in turn the casinos will now liaise with the government and begin a thorough, though very quiet, security review and vetting of their personnel. Given the nature of this and of the business itself, we're unlikely to hear of the results in any other but the blandest and most general of terms.
Now with that in mind consider this version of the same story shared by Mr. H.B.:
Here the arms dealer narrative is one again referred to:
Why would an accountant, with no criminal history, who according to his own family, didn’t even like guns, suddenly decide to commit the worst mass-casualty shooting in United States history? Even Republican Congressman Trey Gowdy is scoffing at the narrative that this was carried out by a lone shooter.
An unproven theory currently being circulated by someone claiming to be an FBI agent is downright chilling, and supports the theory that there was in fact more than one shooter. In an email that was supposedly sent by an FBI agent seeking to remain anonymous, the text reveals a conspiracy of Benghazi-level proportions. The shooter was actually a FBI agent who was involved in a gun running scheme similar to what happened in Libya. But things unfortunately didn’t go as planned. A screenshot of the email is below, whose text reads:
“The LVMPD knows the motive behind the attack, but the FBI will not allow us to release the motive because it implicates the FBI in illegal arms deals and supplying arms to ISIS terrorists within U.S. borders.”
“Stephen Paddock was an undercover FBI agent who participated in multiple illegal arms deals in the Las Vegas area in a gun running entrapment scheme similar to Fast and Furious. Paddock thought he was engaging in another routine arms transfer, but ISIS operatives who were going to meet him learned about the entrapment scheme and Paddock’s true identity. They killed him and carried out the massacre, and then fled the scene.”
Whether those allegations are true or not remains to be seen, and as the article points out, the email in question cannot be verified.
But in any case, the bottom line is, of course, that if these Australians' reports are true then the whole event was planned and orchestrated.
See you on the flip side...
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probably too late for everyone here – just in case
hadn’t considered the possibility of a helicopter based sniper. or even a gunship.
mike adams did some nice calculations on his video verifying a second shooter. one probably at 450 yds and another at probably 250 yds
and there’s a runway and heliport adjacent to the concert area.
With respect to one of my comments the other day, ZDB, you said my use of the word “may” was weak. Too weak.
The use of the word “may” should be a word one should use when one suspects something but has no proof. Based on what we know now the word “may” can be successfully removed. Faux News (by which I specifically mean FOX News Channel) IS planting “differing opinions” as straw men to get us to watch and attempt to knock over–without much success. These “straw men” are designed to get us to watch their version of the official “legend” to improve ratings and to convince us they are “fair and balanced”. Right. Their reaction to the LV massacre is consistent to other “legends” in our time: JFK assassination, MLK assassination, RFK assassination, OKC bombing, 9/11, etc. Thus far every attempt I’ve given them every chance to report something accurately. They continue to meet my expectations and disappoint. I still would argue the word “may” is necessary until one is convinced. It seems only fair.
Brand Thornton was interviewed by Jeff Rense and had a convincing story to tell. He claims he heard from some “reliable sources” that there were up to seven shooters who were killed. This guy says his sources are within law enforcement but their comments were unofficial. These comments were at the end of the interview, and at no point did he say shoot-out. But the position of the “death toll from unidentified police members” in the narrative is critical too. In the earlier stages of the interview, Thornton claims to have been an uncle to one member of a couple who was shot on the ground that night. Both the husband and the wife heard shots fired from both the east and the west with victims falling all over the place. The only hope for survival for any of them was to appear as victims among the already dead and injured.
In my mind this interview is not proof–whistle-blowers can say anything behind the mask of anonymity. However, if the forensic evidence he sights for the wounds on his kin is correct, if the number of shots that were suspected to have been fired that evening from two opposite directions, and the number of casualties are as high as reported, a shoot-out might be a plausible explanation for much of the carnage and the count could be higher. One need only find the proof via hard evidence. Gunshots from two different directions would be a risky maneuver by any terrorist group–but not one between two groups dueling it out. The uncle said both the husband and the wife were consistent in their statements before the FBI shut them up–shots were coming from at least two directions and they were caught in the cross-fire. I am now in a “Made It Happen” frame of mind myself–so I suspect if the “shoot-out” scenario proves true (and I’m not convinced either way) the “spooks” lost containment of their “operational targets” and found themselves in a fire-fight. This ups the ante for Paddock’s being a spook to a much higher degree than before. After all, he appears to have been executed before the events in the festival commenced. We must all keep looking.
I know Dean Ryan to be of the highest integrity of truth warrior. Have spoken with him personally.
Previous info in re. Addison/Chertoff and rollout of mega surveillance grid all related.
The Las Vegas Massacre (Full Story)- Jim Fetzer, Dean Ryan and Marine John Anderson Speaks
this whole scam has taken a weirder turn than the usual easily profitted false flag.
it does seem like alot went wrong in their plans and now the oligarchs are damage controlling with msm screeches of gafla.
perhaps it’s time to look at their targets and consider what memes they were planning on pushing to divide and conquer across all demographics.
so no oligarchs were targeted. a whole lot of upper middle class millionaire and sub millionaire folk were though. or call it a large group of mostly white country and western 90k+/year up to 1mil/year incomes. when a bunch of folk like that get hit, what can msm make everyone believe to provoke civil war?
they could start by taking the flouride out of the water. but yes, puttin on the revolution ritz could be one motive, assuming a certain level of competency going about it. against that is Trump (tom tom turnaround) no longer being credible as the new Hitler/Mussolini.
I suspected there were shooters in the crowd… might account for the 10-20 bodies that are the only ones I have seen in photos/videos.
btw seeing as some of us here are ‘Stone’d’ , Jim has had his Nuclear Blackmail report out now since 2012.. so could be worse. I’d imagine something like the people do a JudeoExit and the ‘Judeans’ respond with their Sampson option, blame it on Afghani goatherders who got 100 nukes from North Korea and planted them in all western cities in retribution for Trump tarriffs on fetta cheese. (Blessed, Allah, are the cheesemakers, /Monty Python ).
or get the link off his front page to the right.. 220.127.116.11
Pierre (and all), if you REALLY want to be scared, read this excellent article – and particularly APPENDIX A:
“The Third Temple’s Holy of Holies: Israel’s Nuclear Weapons
by Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army (pub. September 1999)
(And, if you REALLY, REALLY want to be scared, note that the given number of warheads was as of 1999…)
Plot thickens marvelously, no carrageenan required:
Las Vegas Plot Thickens: Stephen Paddock’s Plane Was Owned By Obama Administration Intelligence Contractor
oh what a tangled web they have weaved (offtopic but – http://mileswmathis.com/shake.pdf ). it predates ‘the Rothschilds’ for sure.
Latest from JS (18.104.22.168). Wow. Deserves to be seen in total:
“To be Clear on Vegas:
1. THE MSM narrative is unadulterated pure smokable b.s.. Get high on it if you want, but it won’t help anyone.
2. The FBI does not want to be honest about the scale of what happened, and had a ready-to-go patsy in a hotel room that was never fired from, and therefore had intact windows AFTER the last shots were fired. This patsy may still be alive (but I am not going into that).
3. Rather than a shooting originating at Mandalay bay, a team (or teams) of shooters went around Vegas shooting up hotel lobbies and finished their joy rides at the concert. This is why near and distant shots could be heard in the same videos. I can’t think of why the MSM is being dishonest about this now, but in the first hours they were reporting it.
4. People who were shot at the hotels got a legitimate emergency response, and those shot at the concert were left laying all night to die. The narrative was then expunged down to lone nut case shoots up concert. I can’t figure out why. You’d think they’d milk this to the max, but for some reason the FBI stepped in and said NOPE, this is ONLY a story about a guy shooting at the concert from far away.
I’ll say what I think but can’t prove – The shootings (hotels and concert) were paid for by Soros and European/New World Order interests and carried out by Israeli intelligence and probably a few dupes from Antifa. Something happened with this that they can’t have go public, no matter what. So, since the FBI is in their death grip, the FBI is fabricating horse sh1t to prevent a real investigation into what went on. They had someone convenient on-site that they could use, and they used him. Meanwhile, the perps went to the near-by airport only a block away from the concert and took-off in an already idling jet within 2 or 3 minutes of finishing up at the concert.
When you sum up what is here, all of it documented, that’s really the only highly plausible answer to what everything adds up to. It is pretty [email protected] obvious the concert was set up as a killing field when most of the gates, including ALL emergency exits, were locked. That alone kills the Islamic / lone-nutcase take on this 100 percent. It was a major operation which was directed by high political figures and then buried by the shadow state because something went awry.”
Then there is a highly cogent review of the event, and lack of timely response and breach of the (supposed) sniper’s nest from former SEAL :
Redefining the Enemies Within – Matt Bracken on The Hagmann Report
This running update blog from Robert Steele compiles many aspects of the event:
Las Vegas, Conspiracies and ISIS
Wrong link, but also highly relevant. Here is correct info:
Robert Steele: Las Vegas False Flag a Hybrid (Innocent Drill, Rogue Mass Murder Unit)? Who Dunnit? UPDATE 13
The larger the ‘high incident project’, there’s always many layers of intrigue. Here are a few to consider:
John Guandolo – Slaughter on the Strip was Jihadist Attack * The Hagmann Report https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdW0ijVxgdg
CEO of MGM Grand – Which OWNS Mandalay Bay Casino Hotel Where Shooting Took Place – SOLD-OFF HIS MGM STOCK in the weeks before the attack!
PRIME SUSPECT: CEO of Mandalay Bay, James Murren, is on the DHS Infrastructure Advisory Council!
This video shows the Mandalay Bay hotel while the rapid fire is heard. I don’t see any flashes coming from the 32nd floor. Also several people are pointing towards the front of the stage areahttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nYCv500ide4
The lack of a definitive LVMPD response to a lone shooter is easily explained by the reality of multiple professional shooters. Again, LVMPD is one of the most militarized PD’s in the country and lets not forget the excessive surveillance grid inside and outside the along the strip..
Why take the chance on releasing such a flimsy cover story?? Was this attack meant to cover something else? If smart phone pics are shooting holes in the official narrative. What will security camera footage reveal? Note, zero security camera footage has been released. This is like the Paris night club shooting. Where the absence of security camera footage spoke volumes. This was a very sloppy Op.
It takes all of ten minutes perusing the Vegas videos to confirm the obvious to anyone — that there were multiple shooters at work and they set up a killing field. There are videos where you can hear different guns at different distances being shot AT THE SAME TIME. This is all you need as proof, full stop.
That it is so easy, so obvious, yet so impossible to overturn the false, lying narrative, is sickening. They set up an abattoir, shooting people like fish in a barrel, and everyone shrugs. The US is as bankrupt morally as it is financially. This is simply despicable and repugnant and the blood will never wash out. I am thoroughly disgusted and ashamed of this craven, sick and deranged country.
Care to link these videos?
“The US is as bankrupt morally as it is financially. ”
We’ve been reading this claim since 1776.
There are a lot bigger crimes committed by the USA than a mass murder in Nevada. Iraq, Native Americans, slavery.
Lost. Agreed on the corruption. The cabbies phone vid sound alone makes clear its multiple shooters n Directions and locations.
Basta, I saw/heard videos just as you describe on the first day – on the MSM news. It was obvious that there were two guns firing (at least) because (1) each was of a different ‘tone’ and (2) the firing sometimes overlapped (i.e., two guns firing at the same time). Yes, that is all the proof needed for multiple shooters.
Has anyone seen any video evidence of locations of shooters? Muzzle flashes from 8th floor possibly from cabbies cellphone vid. Full auto shows plenty muzzle flash at the least right?
ZDB, the absence of muzzle-flash evidence is one of the strangest parts of this whole scenario. With the onset of shooting, there were thousands of cellphones with video-cam capability within range. Surely, at least a small percentage of spectators just held-up their cellphones from cover and hit ‘Record’.
We can also hope that those spectators were smart-enough to keep those recordings close to their vests, until they could get the video out onto the web, uncensored. On the other hand, they had better make multiple, ‘distributed’ copies, for ‘personal health’ reasons…
goshawk- Some of that is echo from the urban environment. A change in pitch is likely from the Dopplar Effect and dissipation of the bounced sound coming back to the microphone, creating part of the overlap. However, there are moments where there is definitely 2 guns firing from different locations.
Yes, and on the LE scanner audio, one officer clearly says “we have an active shooter inside the fairgrounds” and another “shots are coming from Gate 7” which is at the rear of the compound in relation to the stage.
not all killed or wounded need to have taken a bullet, there were stampedes and locked exit gates. still though it is the USA’s Port Arthur, and paddock is Martin Bryant – oh what a shooter.
Jim Stone covering this (are we feeding the pan dimensional demons with our attentions I sometimes wonder?) 22.214.171.124. Video in other hotel (and there are others too) with shootings and lockedinplace at the same place and time.
at least nothing turned into dust and the asbestos in any buildings has remained intact.
Nice pierre. Good points, all.
The claims of a dead guard read as sort of credible.
The other claims seem so thin, bogus, that they’re being made so as to be able to dismiss solid evidence for more than one gunman in Dealey Plaza, or in the pantry in California June 1968.
There’s zero evidence for Paddock’s ties to ISIS some “violent left”. No evidence, he was running guns as a sting, And unlike Dallas, dozens of witnesses have NOT said: “but the shots came from the other direction”.
Well, at least we know that the MSM is pushing a narrative. They are not interested in informing anyone. They are all about promoting certain narratives that fit their psychotic agenda.
That said, right now it looks to me, that Paddock is a patsy. He was murdered by the people he was working with. There were probably psycho spooks firing from the roof and other parts of the building.
More weaponized Hegelian dialectic for the masses.
“That said, right now it looks to me, that Paddock is a patsy. He was murdered by the people he was working with.”
That’s an assertion, but what checkable evidence can you muster to back it up?
Sounds most likely janu. I think the werd we’re coming to settle on for the wurlitzer’s storyline is “legend.”
Makes sense considering all the legends we were raised with. “Myth” is another good contender.
We have an audio recording by police of the shooting itself. From beginning to end it lasted 4 minutes and 33 seconds. For 558 people to have been killed or wounded within that span of time by a lone gunman, 2.1 persons would have had to have been shot every second. Not even a machine gun could have accomplished that feat. Machine guns can only be shot in 6 second bursts. Otherwise both the barrel and the magazine overheat. At that point the gunman must wait at least 3-4 seconds for the magazine to cool down before firing another burst. Then there’s the problem of re-loading. Re-loading must occur every 15 rounds because its also a part of the cooling down mechanism and typically takes another 8-12 seconds depending on the magazine. So at best a machine gun can get off 18 rounds in a 30 second span. Assuming 2.1 people are shot in that time span, it tracks out to about 18 hits in 30 seconds, 36 hits per minute or 4 x 36 plus 18 = 162 total hits in 4 minutes and 33 seconds. Let’s say that the machine gun is military grade and my estimates are of by 20%. That still tracks out to only 195 hits in total vs. The Government’s fairy tale that a lone gunman shot 558 people in those same 4 minutes and 33 seconds. Something is rotten in Vegas!
Unfortunately, your suppositions on cyclic rates, etc are FAR off. No disrespect intended. A timing of the cyclic rate from actual recordings put the rate at 3-4 rounds per second. Also, the magazines used were of Surefire type, at 60 rounds per magazine. 20 seconds per magazine is 3 magazines a minute. Add in reload time at 5 seconds each. Now you are at 180 rnds every 1:15 seconds.
180 X 4 minutes = The reality
From an old Merc. Peace.
And the wurlitzer is not claiming 558 people shot. Sounds like some trampling hurt more than a few.
Icepik. What think u of belt fed ammo likelihood here.
Or of videos on yt claiming to show shooters in the crowd with machine pistols dressed as security?
You have the wrong gun. Several military grade weapons were being traded in that room, but there is no evidence that a military grade weapon was used in the attack.. Certainly not from the shells produced thus far. See John Rappoport’s articles.. Also Robert Steele, former Black Ops agent for the CIA, says that most of the deaths were staged. He has recordings of medical officers going up to people apparently lying in a pool of blood and saying, “No entry wound. No exit wound. Let’s move on!” Many gunman were simply shooting up into the air.
“deaths were staged”?
Then what happened when those playing dead decided to get up and go home–but the next day they’re on a list of victims?
Is the point to undermine legitimate questions, or verified contradictions to the official story?
Lazer- The video/audio you’re mentioning of the aftermath, someone from the crowd is checking bodies on the ground for vital signs, when the crowd light go out. He’s trying to direct (non-present) EMS personnel to the wounded. Someone asks “who are you?” he responded “I’m just trying to help, my mother is a nurse. If you know how to get these light back on, do it” (I’m paraphrasing) The original upload and several clones have been deleted.
There is a photo of deceased Paddock on the internet. If he shot himself in the mouth, there are suspiciously little blood and brain remains on the floor. I mean he had to shoot himself in the mouth as I don´t see any exit wounds, so it need to be on the back of his head and the photo don´t show it. Maybe he was already dead when somebody put gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. I don´t know… the whole story is absolutely crazy.
You cannot see an exit wound because he is lying on his back, and the Point Of View camera angle is from above and over the body. The real question is why are there 2 or 3 areas of congealed blood? One fresh, and one older (soaked carpet).
Las Vegas has so many shady connections that it’s truly embarassing, from the mob to the air taxi service to Groom Lake (“Area 51”).
Currently everything that the media is churning out should be prefaced with “alleged”.
Here we naturally tend to focus on the social engineering aspect of such events and their power to impact the collective psyche to induce fear, confusion etc. But like the Twin Towers affair, there might be a more “material” side such as eliminating and/or “disappearing” certain individuals and/or valuables of some type. When there is a list of the alleged casualties, these, together with people who emerge as star media witnesses, can be examined for veracity, media and defence links etc.
So far, everything about this “event” stinks like a mackerel on a moonlit beach. If you do the math, there is no way a single shooter could possibly have fired that many rounds within the given time frame. Given the number of “casualties”, even if he could have fired that many rounds, he would have had to hit a target on almost every round fired. Trained snipers aren’t even that good at that distance and angle using automatic weapons which are hard to control once auto fire is engaged.
Why did the “concert crew” light up the entire audience with the stage lights? Was this to conceal the muzzle flash of shooters actually located much closer above and behind the stage lighting? A total of 4 windows were knocked out, two on the wrong side of the hotel. Once again we have an “active shooter drill” scheduled before the “event”, possibly as a practice run and set up for this.
The immediate call for “more gun control and banning” also fits the false flag playbook, and by Hitlery of all people.
Anyone who trusts the FBI, who is notorious for setting up and then “busting” countless “plots” of a similar nature, is in need of help. The “ISIS/terrorism” angle is always the meme. The same would apply for any “FBI whistle blower”. The spin, in both the MSM and “controlled” alt media is always contradictory on purpose to keep everyone so confused that the truth can never come out.
This is more in line with a Mossad operation to keep the funding pouring in and the USSA focused on “terrorists” who the CIA/Mossad back and control. It should be apparent to most aware people that our government is out of control or under the control of “outside forces”, not that hard to believe given the high percentage of “dual citizen” congressmen.
This is the reason we have a second amendment, which is currently under attack daily; and we are seeing it slowly eaten away bit by bit in state after state, as the population will not tolerate it being done away with all at once. It is imperative that they disarm the populace before they can continue with whatever plans are on the table. Given the history of populations which have been disarmed world wide, this would not be in our best interest.
Something absolutely wicked this way comes and they are ramping up the pressure.
WD – Good cogent argument. I think anyone with even slight intelligence knows this was a FF, and its unfortunate that Trump is now drawn into the game whether he’s involved or not. Yeah, the fbi is as dirty as any German SS and the director is chest deep in the swamp as was his worthless predecessor. Add to that a compromised sessions and his dual citizen deputy Rosenstein and you have obummer/hitlery lite.
“gun banning”? Hasn’t been brought up really.
“dual citizen”, oh so go there.
R u having us on as usual lost? Haven’t seen ghafafi’s bane’s oh so heartfelt pleas?
ghadafi duc. scuse the spelling.
remember hitlery? “we came. we saw. he died…..hahahaha….”
yeh that bane.
well look around now for her deep tugs at our hearts for more laws on gun control. ironic eh?
have you not seen any calls for stricter gun laws in this?
On the “ISIS operatives … killed him [Paddock] and carried out the massacre, and then fled the scene,” that is very unlikely. The killing, perhaps (gag). But then, to allegedly stand in a window and fire-off a thousand rounds over 10+ minutes? Not unless they were wanting their 72 virgins in heaven. In the real world, they would have been boxed-in within minutes, and a bloody shoot-out would have ensued. That FBI ‘informant’ seems to be pursuing the standard disinformation-procedure of diluting truth (multiple shooters) with propaganda-memes (ISIS)…
On “a security guard was killed by police,” it sounds like a too gung-ho (or just unlucky) security guard was able to get to the shooting-location (wherever it was) and was killed by the shooters or the ‘security’ around the shooters (who MAY have been wearing police vests). The killing was then ‘misdirected’ on the real police…
“Ms Miller’s report of a security guard being chased” by personnel also wearing ‘security jackets’ could have been the (legitimate) security guard reported killed, or a second (legitimate) security guard who had spotted the perps at work and was now running for his life. (I.e., the pursuers sporting ‘security jackets’ were the baddies.)
In my humble opinion, Paddock is looking more and more like an Oswald-style ‘patsy’…
Yesterday I have listened to what Robert Steele was teling on the Richie Allen Show and I found it very interesting:
Robert Steele “As A CIA Officer I Ran False Flag Ops. Las Vegas Is A False Flag!”
Question: Who’s the biggest bag of hot air? Richie or Steel? Close call.
Trump or Hillary?