NOW IT’S BACH, MOZART, AND AUNT JEMIMA

I admit, when I woke up this morning and found the following article by Paul Craig Roberts in my email inbox from M.W., I became angry. In fact, I'm still angry, so I apologize for writing this in the heat of a purple passion.

Consider that a "rant alert", level three.

But it was bound to happen sooner or later as the cultural swamp that is modern America continues to decline under the assaults of political correctness, cultural Marxism, the "Frankfurt school", multi-culturalism, call it what you will, because sooner or later (and I suspect sooner rather than later) those statues and pictures of J.S. Bach, C.P.E. Bach, Joseph Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin... you know, all those composers that form the core of our musical culture, will come tumbling down for some silly reason being advanced by people who are, essentially, witless barbarians and musical morons and self-annointed "perfect people". It will become a "hate crime" or a symbol of "white supremacy" to listen to it at all in a public venue. Better to take a knee, and listen to rap or hip hop to demonstrate your "wokeness" (sic). And we have to get rid of Aunt Jemima, in spite of what the family of one of her portrayers says, because ...well... we're really not told, but it has something to do with stereotyping or pancake inclusivity, or something that I can't figure out, but that's ok, because apparently Aunt Jemima's family can't understand it either:

Family of woman who portrayed Aunt Jemima opposes move to change brand

Think I'm exaggerating? Well, ponder what Mr. Roberts has to say on the music matter:

Here's the core:

Classical music is inherently racist

– New Music USA

Faced with this observation, classical music is encouraged to renew itself. However, according to professionals in the sector, one of the major challenges is to change the image of a field perceived as “too white”. According to a report published in 2016 by the League of American Orchestras, blacks represent only 1.8% of orchestra members, and Latin Americans only 2.5%. Moreover, the vast majority of the works performed in the concerts were by composers of European origin, which is considered insufficiently “inclusive” in the United States. For example, the San Francisco Chronicle recently expressed regret that the city’s Symphony Orchestra will present almost exclusively compositions created by white men in the 2017-2018 season.

Too white, too old, the classical music sector is accused of being out of step with the country’s changing demographics. Indeed, projections by the US Census Bureau predict that the share of ethnic minorities in the population will increase to become the majority around the middle of the century, and would already represent 45% of the 18-23 age group. As a result, a number of American newspapers have recently denounced the fact that the classical music scene is considered too ethnically homogenous. The New York Times accuses it of being the “least diverse institution in the country” and of masking “a racist problem”, while the Seattle Magazine proclaims that it is necessary to “attack its whiteness”. The specialized press is not to be outdone: the National Public Radioconstate’s website says that the scene is “extremely white and increasingly marginalized,” echoing New Music USA, which for its part believes that “classical music is inherently racist.

These accusations are based on the following logic: if an institution has too small a proportion of people of non-European descent, it is suspected of masking a discriminatory recruitment process, or even a form of “structural racism”. Recently, this beam of criticism has hit a wide variety of fields, such as cinema (with the hashtag #OscarsSoWhite), ice hockey (#HockeySoWhite), or the Silicon Valley business community (#SiliconValleySoWhite). In the name of economic performance or the principle of non-discrimination, each institution is thus scrutinized and judged on the basis of its degree of openness to “diversity”.

And all this in spite of a surge of its popularity in Asian cultures:

While classical music was banned during the Cultural Revolution, it is estimated today that about 50 million young Chinese are learning the piano.

In the field of classical music, this leads to prioritizing the recruitment of musicians from diverse ethnic backgrounds, modifying the canon of composers deemed essential to include artists of colour, or transforming the current concert format to offer collaborations with singers appreciated by young audiences, as proposed in the League of American Orchestras’ report entitled “How Diversity Can Help Save Classical Music”.

It is to be hoped that this project of ethnic recalibration will succeed in breathing new life into classical music across the Atlantic. Sceptics, however, will prefer to bank on the extraordinary enthusiasm of the younger generation of Asian Americans for this art form. The latter constitute a growing fringe of amateurs and professionals, contradicting the above-mentioned critics who see classical music as an area that is not easily accessible to ethnic minorities. Indeed, the children of immigrants from China, South Korea, Singapore or Taiwan are over-represented in conservatories, and pushed by their parents, who see this apprenticeship as a school of rigour and excellence. It remains to be seen, however, whether their demographic weight in the population will be sufficient to reverse the current declining trend.

But I rather suspect that the real rub - with all its subtle implications  that were not spelled out in his remark because it might be career suicide to do so - were expressed by Lorin Maazel:

All these factors led Lorin Maazel, former music director of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, to say: “We need defenders of our classical music tradition, if classical music is to survive …

That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell: We need defenders, not just of our musical culture, but of our culture, period.

Why? Very simply, because we're watching whole swaths of our history and culture being obliterated in the name of a wacky moral perfectionism and secular Pelagianism that would burn books, paintings, statues, music scores, opera librettos and pancake mix by anyone who did  not live up to that perfectionism, as defined by the Marxist mob the left in this country has become. And while Dr. Roberts doesn't say it in his article, I suspect that the project of "ethnic recalibration" of orchestras and so on to be "more inclusive" will not be satisfactory, because the real aim I suspect it to change the listening habits of people, and to destroy the cultural tradition of western civilization altogether. As far as music goes this can very easily be fixed by "social quotas" and can be tracked on your iphone. Over a certain percentage of listening hours per musical genre per week, and you might be guilty of "musical ethnic supremacy," but only, of course, if you're not a minority.  The problem, of course, is that if the Chinese are learning Bach and Beethoven and Chopin, then there's something about that European culture that is transcendent of race. But they don't like to mention that, because that would start people asking some uncomfortable questions that, for the cultural Pelagianist, are best left unasked,  because they lead to things like "grace" and the impossibility of utopias, and things like that.

OK.  Rant over. I'm going to go have some pancakes and listen to some classical music...see you on the flip side:

Posted in

Joseph P. Farrell

Joseph P. Farrell has a doctorate in patristics from the University of Oxford, and pursues research in physics, alternative history and science, and "strange stuff". His book The Giza DeathStar, for which the Giza Community is named, was published in the spring of 2002, and was his first venture into "alternative history and science".

48 Comments

  1. Robert Barricklow on June 26, 2020 at 11:48 am

    Great my comment is out of quarantine!

    Once again serendipity in my reading. Or, I’m just in this Stasi State of Mandatory Mask Mandates. There are 13 States and the Swampland itself[District of Columbia; and everything I do takes on a 1984 Technocratic dictatorship backdrop.
    Yet, in Jonathan Lethem’s Gun, With Occasional Music; the backdrop is virtually the same. Although the lingua franca is technically different; the context is virtually today’s transhumanism liquid dream. Written wickedly cool by 1994 standards. There’s are social credit scores known as Karma. Do something politically wrong and get debited on the spot. First sentence: It was there when I woke up. The feeling. It was two weeks after I’d quite my last case, working for Maynard Stanhunt. The feeling was there before I tuned in the musical interpretation of news on my bedside radio, but it was the music al news that confirmed it: I was about to work again. I would get a case . The book is a cross between a Raymond Chandler detective novel and science fiction writer PKD [Here’s the CIA wiki version]:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun,_with_Occasional_Music



    • Robert Barricklow on June 26, 2020 at 11:52 am

      Notice the wiki reference to the list of the author’s non-fiction works: Drumroll… “They Live”.



    • goshawks on June 27, 2020 at 11:03 pm

      Robert, what got you modded was the ‘h0mo’ in “H0mogenized.” I feel so much safer, being protected like this…



      • Robert Barricklow on June 27, 2020 at 11:31 pm

        Thanks Goshawks.
        I lost my homo phobia there for awhile.

        Benjamin Franklin’s safety quote is so prescient.



      • Robert Barricklow on June 27, 2020 at 11:37 pm

        Thanks Goshawks!
        I lost my h0mo phobia there for awhile.
        [Oops! I got tripped up again; this is take 2!]

        Ben Franklin’s safety quote says it all.



  2. zendogbreath on June 25, 2020 at 2:30 pm

    It was only a matter of time before one stupid meme connects with another.

    https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/24/oregon-county-issues-coronavirus-mask-mandate-but-only-for-white-people/



  3. zendogbreath on June 25, 2020 at 2:17 pm

    https://www.bitc hute.com/video/TWfHzPpk4Wk/?list=notifications&randomize=false
    32 YEARS OF EXPERT TESTIMONY
    Tony Heller is quickly becoming a favorite internet guy.



  4. paul hollister on June 25, 2020 at 7:57 am

    Its easy to suggest this is merely the marxist agenda being played out, but what is truly scary is the silence from everyday people both black and white. It looks like Salieri is going to get even after all.



  5. Loxie Lou Davie on June 25, 2020 at 7:14 am

    I think we’re forgetting one “force” that is dragging Humanity downward….The A.I. Takeover!!!

    Soon it will be some form of A.I. making all our major decisions….like who should live & who should die??!!!
    Or has that already happened with this Plandemic Control?!

    People still running around wearing masks shows how easily We The People can be controlled!!

    Cyrus A. Parsa points out how easily the entire Human Race can be controlled from “behind the scenes” by an Invisible Force…..perhaps that is what our Wrecking Ball was talking about???

    Who is REALLY controlling these Wreckers of Society??



  6. GW on June 25, 2020 at 2:57 am

    You’de not better to try fight the windmills, guys.
    If there’s gonna be racial law, then there’s time to fight. Till then it is better to ignore this.



  7. primal_murmur on June 25, 2020 at 1:34 am

    Part of me says “This means war.” Another part says “let them reveal themselves for what they really are: verbose cretins”.



  8. FiatLux on June 25, 2020 at 12:40 am

    It’s official–the left has gone completely insane. It has lost its mind and its soul. (I’m saying this as someone who, until recently, has always identified with the left.) Paul Craig Roberts titled one of his recent blog posts “Can We Survive Our Collective Stupidity?” I wonder.

    I think our only hope is to follow Dr. Farrell’s advice and own the culture, or take it back from the brutes who seem hellbent on tearing it to shreds. Western civilization is a precious heritage, worth preserving.

    Today there’s an all-out attack on Western history and culture, in both the U.S. and Europe, and they seem to have pulled out all the stops. I really wonder who/what is behind it and what the purpose is. I agree there’s a strong whiff of Sorosian color revolution in the air.



  9. zendogbreath on June 25, 2020 at 12:13 am

    Been thinking today about censorship and misguidance we are experiencing. Prompted to it by

    zerohedge.com/political/npr-busted-framing-self-defense-getaway-gunmen-right-wing-vehicle-attack?utm_campaign=&utm_content=ZeroHedge%3A+The+Durden+Dispatch&utm_medium=email&utm_source=zh_newsletter

    It’s the first time I saw NPR so brazenly lie. It’s full spectrum lying across all lines by all sources – some more than others. I have been poking holes in such lying folk since I ran across Paul R Erlich and thought I was running up against conventions forced on us by anti-environmentalists like Rockefellers. Took a few decades to grock Malthusianism and then a few more to grock controlled opposition.

    So these days we (at least some of us) are poking holes in pretty much all narratives shoveled over us. Plandemic, racism and censorship. Censorship can be helpful to find information surprisingly.

    youtube.com/watch?v=QbB4XcfKzg8
    Michael Moore Presents Planet of the Humans Full Documentary Directed by Jeff Gibbs

    I remember feeling lied into wars by W and Cheney with Fox’s support. I remember feeling Micheal Moore was one of the first to show the lies behind 911, tobacco, corporate wealth transfers out of the US and on. At some point he started blathering anything to get a Clinton in office.

    And then we see him get censored by big tech enough to prompt me to watch Planet of the Humans. And it’s back to Malthus.

    Through it all, the meme I am starting to feel come up is a taming of the shrew (society at large aka us) with a lethal attempts at perfection on all issues. So now we have safety-ism in all matters. It’s not safe for us to question narratives. Any narratives put forward by the corporate sponsors. Was Bubba’s garage attacked by haters months or years before he to there? Only racist conspiracy theorist would ask such questions. Are covid (alleged with questionable diagnoses) deaths going down while covid (alleged with questionable tests) positive infections going up? Does that mean more lockdowns or less since the disease is obviously (to sane intellects) proving progressively less lethal?



    • zendogbreath on June 25, 2020 at 12:17 am

      Through all these and more memes, one idea comes up more and more. How do we guage where the narrative controllers are taking this chaos? Clearly they believe that truth has little to do with their capabilities and choices. How do folk so dependent on accuracy to live (us) come to terms with folk so dependent on inaccurate statements (authorities) to live?



      • FiatLux on June 25, 2020 at 1:05 am

        I think the less dependent we make ourselves on them and their statements, the better off we’ll be. Where are they taking the chaos? Toward a planet with more power for the very few and a more easily controlled (dumber, smaller) human population.



  10. Joe A. on June 24, 2020 at 9:57 pm

    Mon Dieu !
    I always believed that cretinism had limits..Alas I was greatly mistaken.At least I’ll keep playing my organ for pleasure and listening to my old records.The Globaloneys
    are moving in on our peace of mind activities.What next?



  11. emlong on June 24, 2020 at 7:40 pm

    As Duke Ellington once said, “It’s all music.”



  12. marcos toledo on June 24, 2020 at 7:35 pm

    Unfortunately since the fall of the Roman Empire Europe has gone through periodic bouts of cultural self-destruction. The cycle seems to happen every four to five hundred years and there is the greater problem of who are the shadow puppetmasters behind this phenomenon that has spread like the vilest plague across the whole planet.



    • emlong on June 24, 2020 at 7:41 pm

      Sorosian divide and conquer.



  13. OrigensChild on June 24, 2020 at 6:26 pm

    We all have our moments and engage in rants. I, for one, had a couple last fall/winter that I regret–and have tried to repair any breaches as best I could. If I’ve ever offended I do apologize. This was never my intent. But I think each of us should be forgiven when we see the lives and livelihoods of those with whom we’ve worked shattered for no sane reason. I’ve seen a lot in the past 8 months.

    The problem with Marxists is–they’re stupid! Historically, intellectually, morally, spiritually, culturally, artistically–these people are in all cases bankrupt. For those who know better stupid is the correct word. Unfortunately the younger among them are simply ignorant–and seem to have no compunction to educate themselves beyond the propaganda they are fed. There is no sanity in Marxism. It’s raw emotion–and that is an oroboros.



    • Robert Barricklow on June 24, 2020 at 7:32 pm

      Couldn’t have put it better!



    • Paul on June 25, 2020 at 12:15 am

      Ok, so you had a rant, why apologize? You spoke your mind, good. I’m ex-navy, submarine force SIOP, was taught never say you are sorry as it is a sign of weakness. We survived a lot of bovine excrement because we broke most rules in whatever books existed back then. We did what we did so you could have those rants, I salute you and thank whatever powers exist that you did speak out!



    • Joseph P. Farrell on June 25, 2020 at 4:56 am

      Well and aptly said.



  14. eliot on June 24, 2020 at 4:59 pm

    Could this attack be related to the fact that most classical music is recorded at 432 hz instead of 440hz? Psyops work better in disharmonious frequency ranges…



    • LSM on June 24, 2020 at 5:39 pm

      almost all music is now recorded at 440hz- it’s a very disruptive frequency that makes one
      open to other disruptive frequencies-

      Larry in Germany (former opera singer for 43 yrs.)



      • zendogbreath on June 25, 2020 at 12:23 am

        Agreed in theory. Have yet to work enough in practice to test the theory. Doc, sure wish you weigh in on this one.



  15. alisonbell on June 24, 2020 at 4:58 pm

    The organ piece…. OMG. I died and went to heaven.
    THNAK YOU.



  16. Westcoaster on June 24, 2020 at 2:31 pm

    Personally, I’d like to see more inclusiveness in the NFL and NBA. Sure don’t see many white faces there. And what’s the deal with “Animal Crackers”? Shouldn’t that begone along with “Aunt Jemina” and “Uncle Ben”?
    Or shouldn’t we just forget the entire effort and recognize our “Human heritage” is the net result of our struggle of Human beings “Being Human”?
    Change, solely for the sake of change, isn’t productive.



  17. S Klein on June 24, 2020 at 1:41 pm

    Lord have mercy!
    Synchronicity!
    I put a cd in my player just before I got online…St. Cecelia Symphony Orchestra playing Bach. Thank goodness. A good reminder to buy more cds.

    I was listening as I read the post. Somehow, the music lessened the “blow”.
    They cannot succeed. No one will be happy in a technocratic world.



  18. Billy Bob on June 24, 2020 at 12:29 pm

    New World Order? Or New World Inventory System? Why do five manufacturing plants need to to make five brands of pancake mixes? Pancakes are pancakes…build one or two using the latest technology that can produce enough mix to satisfy the market and close the five older ones. Sustainability…
    Why have special venues for special music? Music is music… build new ones with the latest technology that can handle any kind of music, opera and stage productions.(remove the names of the prominent European DNA community members they are named after)
    Sustainability…
    Lots of new contracts in the offing, to the winner goes the spoils.
    Once in place the Technocrats will have their wet dreams fulfilled…a complete inventory of everything and everyone on the planet and a data base of details for manipulation of their games forever….Game theory has many fans.



  19. Robert Barricklow on June 24, 2020 at 11:48 am

    Ah. The Great White-Out of any culture.
    Even Christ himself is becoming a color=coded spirit.
    Still, I don’t remember a white crayon in the box.
    So at least a box of color crayons is still sacred.
    Or is the correct word not sacred, but safe.
    Waking up now in a black world in more ways than one cares to acknowledge. Or, perhaps a better way to phrase that: waking up in a dark world.
    On the bright side we all get to see the latest CIA version of a color revolution, One designed to split the country/people apart.
    I mean if they can knock Jesus out while taking away Yosemite Sam’s shooting irons and at the same time shut down the one-armed bandits across the globe; those are some heavy-duty enemies brother[got to keep these remakes colorful].
    Looks like even classical music is subject to taking the BLM rap. Is nothing MLK sacred.
    Well; right off the bat, I think Guantanamo Bay music gets a pass.
    What the solution is moving towards is like the American Justice system. Which is an algorithmic system based upon points. In this case a color offense could be 12 points. Then there’s how many counts you have saying such and such. Where you said it; etc., etc.
    W/this new algorithmic colorful awakening smart phone app; your good to go out in the NWO masked world and face the contact tracing mine fields. Hopefully you have the latest contact tracing John Madden version w/the X’s and O’s, the plays, and exit strategies to get around those Stasi Tracers.
    For example, It’s A Small, Small World has been Gates of Hell updated to: It’s A NWO Homogenized-Safe, and NWO Vegetized-Safe World.
    The NWO of course, will be certified all to hell safe. Structurally free of backed-in-the-cake violence[get out your barf bags] because Silicon Valley is coming to the rescue.



    • Robert Barricklow on June 24, 2020 at 11:51 am

      I was halfway thru my rant;
      and then remembered:
      speaking of algorithmic justice…



  20. Tom on June 24, 2020 at 11:36 am

    If ever we needed any more proof that a hidden ” elite ” are trying to disconnect us from the higher mind…. The good news is this will push some people ( including myself ) more and more towards the finer end of the arts.



    • Roger on June 24, 2020 at 11:58 am

      I’ve recently come to suspect that most of the secret evil cults and activities happening today were started by a group trying to destroy Western civilization and Christianity. The elite of this group does not participate in these cults they created to undermine other nations and peoples but just use them for black mail and covert operations. They also believe God will help them succeed in destroying these nations because of these cults perverting them and turning them into an abomination. This same group has a prophecy of using Islam to help destroy Europe before they destroy Islam. Many people are helping them destroy their own countries for temporary wealth, power and fear of being uncovered. Some of this hidden group (previous presidents warned of) also take part in these forbidden activities but the elite of their group will destroy them last when they also separate the wheat from the chaff of their own people as well. They believe they will then rule the New World for some time. I don’t believe the Luciferians are at the top of the pyramid I just suspect they are just one of many cults created to undermine other nations from within.



  21. Katie B on June 24, 2020 at 9:00 am

    Surely reading is waycist too. Burn those books.

    Or get a big metal trunk for all of your most treasured books and earmark a spot to bury it in the garden. Preserve your culture.



    • Jesus Evola on June 24, 2020 at 9:38 am

      E. Michael Jones was just banned universally from Amazon … of course not the first, nor the last. The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times.



      • Katie B on June 27, 2020 at 9:41 am

        Yep. I have banned Amazon this month from my wallet!



    • Don B on June 24, 2020 at 1:40 pm

      Katie, sadly I believe that could be on the way from these self- described marxist, blm and antifa (lower cases intentional). While in high school and after my paper route on Saturday, I would hitchhike over 20 miles to a university and have a soda with a fellow from Cambodia whose family were intellectuals, and I was always amazed about the stories from Cambodia. (Little did I know I would be in Asia in a few years). At any rate we know what happened in Cambodia with the enjoyment of demented people like brzxstyvxzki. It can happen.



      • Katie B on June 24, 2020 at 3:21 pm

        Hi Don, yes it could be a real possibility. They tried with kindle but bibliophiles will never be removed from the paper book with a memory to detect on every other page – a smell, a smudge or a note. All of those wonderful analogical things that give depth to the human experience that these sterile, empty headed commie-robots cannot understand. People ask Joseph how to own the culture, it could be Something as simple as hoarding and preserving books somehow. Hugs to you and yours Don.



        • Don B on June 24, 2020 at 7:50 pm

          Hope so, Katie. I’m on borrowed time. Thankyou friend.



    • blakecosmos on June 24, 2020 at 5:48 pm

      Well if it’s a matter of #bookssowhite or whatever nonsense they come up with next, perhaps someone can ask our cultural guardians of wokeness, why titles by Black Authors, that actually do tell the history in an unvarnished way, i.e. why Marcus Garvey was sabotaged by the N.A.A.C.P., (because he mobilized Black Americans around the ideas of culture and economic clout) or who the Spingarn Brothers are, or what the Boule society is, and what its function has been and continues to be, or how both Jazz and Hip Hop were waylaid, well now that would be an interesting discussion, but really it makes a larger point. The point is that these are the same people who have decided that they also get to define your reality, your medical “health” and the way you should see the world… to which I suggest the following… Do not pass go, do not collect $200 and go directly to where you truly belong, there’s a spot waiting for you all.



      • Katie B on June 25, 2020 at 5:02 am

        Hope you’re near me on my spot! 😉



  22. DanaThomas on June 24, 2020 at 6:48 am

    Hang in Joseph, they are in auto-destruct mode and will NOT take us with them.



  23. anakephalaiosis on June 24, 2020 at 5:58 am

    There is exorcism in resurrection, when going with the flow of a bursting river dam. Music, at its best, describes transformation principles, in metalanguage of Affektenlehre in Ryne-Stafas. The Babel Tower is a linguistic and musical spiral to heaven. The USA’s boot print on Icelandic face is disharmony, that collapses the winding stairs to heaven.

    ODIN’S DRINKING PARTY 3

    When I woke into resurrection,
    I needed my reparation,
    and angel schnaps
    lifted caps,
    and boosted my levitation.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/cc61o55cym87pby/druid-king.jpg



  24. goshawks on June 24, 2020 at 5:37 am

    I am going to reply to this in a way some people may not like, this being a science-oriented blog:

    You may have heard of the Chakra system. It is an ancient energy/consciousness-based system common through the East. It runs – in a series of energy centers or vortices – from the base of the spine to over the head. Each Chakra corresponds to a different consciousness level, from basest at the base to most enlightened at the crown.

    Music attracts us to different Chakra levels. Some renditions concentrate on one or two Chakras, some on more. Classical music is predominantly heart and up. (Pachelbel’s Canon in D is like continually running up and down the Chakras like an energy massage, almost like he knew what he was doing *grin*. Superb.) Rap music is the opposite, almost always base to stomach.

    Given what the PTB have in mind for the world (master/slave, noble/serf, or Harkonnen-style structure – if not outright chaos and population reduction), reducing human consciousness is essential. The higher chakras broadcast “We Are”; the lower chakras broadcast “I Am” (in an ‘I am alone’ sense). If you were wanting to bring-down a culture/planet, which would you emphasize?

    So, I am not surprised at Classical Music being under siege. It fits the overall modus operandi perfectly. Camouflaging the attack under non-discrimination, not-cool, ‘wokeness’, etc., are just strategies to remove a higher-consciousness-invoking Player from the field…



    • Maatkare3114 on June 24, 2020 at 2:45 pm

      Well said goshawks



    • Joseph P. Farrell on June 24, 2020 at 7:03 pm

      Well, next they’ll be going after Duke Ellington and the Beatles and the Beech Boys because they were too under the influence of JS Bach, and liking Aunt Jemima pancakes will be “cultural appropriation”, etc etc.



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